2016-02-11 Talk about money #2

Owned by Douglas Webb
Feb 11, 2016
Present: Douglas Webb, Martin Schott, Vinicio De Angelis, Raphael Fellmer, Manuele Carlini, Kirstin Siu, Janina Abels, Tais Real, Bodhi Neiser, Philip Engelbutzeder, Be, Joachim Thome, Matthias Larisch, @Adrean L and Manuel Waelder 
Notary/ies: Douglas Webb
Location: Nürnberg
[Meeting begins: 17:50]

Outcomes  

Expectations 

MC: I expect that we come out with a list of what we need to do.

RF: We should recap over the money survey. Not too in depth (i.e. don't discuss basic income)
VD: General clarification... understand how we work with this topic
AL: Hope we can come to some common ground
MS: Clarification of personal views. Let us see and respect each others views.
ML: Work towards finding a clear pattern for individual use cases
JT: Nice exchange of view points. Not to make any decisions.
BG: Discuss results of survey and see what conclusions there are and that we don't repeat ourselves. Move forwards
DW: Release any tensions, don't make decisions, know how to move forward.
PE: Start process where we can discuss opinions here and remotely and generally getting things more concrete. Get aim in focus.
TR: Curious to get overview of perspectives and discuss practical examples.
BN: Look at overview/meta level to see what we can have concrete guidelines for
JA: To see what the extreme (and mild) viewpoint are.
KS: No major expectation

Minutes  

MC: Let's start with the money survey

MC: What are the scope and value of yunity? I don't think the scope is to be moneyless, but could be a value. More important that we enable what we need: some people get paid to do work, other do it for nothing. 'We use money for the connection we don't have'.
BG: We should be honest whatever we do: if we say moneyless, we're moneyless, if not, not. Also, getting funding is not easy - we need to make a decision on this if we're considering funding.
DW: Let's figure out why we have any reservations to money at all - we have not explicitly made this clear anywhere. Let's collect these.
BN: Think WuppHaus should be open, if people have to work to be there it's not so good.
      • BG: If we have a WuppHaus, what do we do if the project finishes.
      • DW: I think ongoing maintainance will continue, don't worry about the project finishes yet.
      • MS: How is the WuppHaus connected with yunity anyway?
PE: I don't think the goal is to be moneyless, but rather an outcome of sharing unconditionally.
JT: Talks about his points from the last money talk: https://yunity.atlassian.net/wiki/display/YUN/2016-02-05+-+Talk+about+money?moved=true
PE: Important to have proportionality with expenditure. The WuppHaus seems reasonable - what about pasta? Informal agreement that WuppHaus is necessary. 
      • JA: Where is the border between convenience and need? The question is how much time we want to let pass
DW: General and specific... Presents proposal: https://yunity.atlassian.net/wiki/display/YUN/Dougs+proposal
      • MC: I like it, would be interested to know how people think
      • ML: Would like to work on this.
TR: What about individual purchases?
      • MC: We are talking about group expenditure
      • TR: You don't think it would affect communal life
BG: Discussing toilet paper vs pasta is very low level and inhibits the project. Whatever we do needs to take less time and effort. The aim should be to get the project done.
MC: Agrees with previous point. Differentiating projects: yunity (OS software project), WuppHaus (residential project), x, y & z.
BG: Strengths and weaknesses to spontaneity. 
MC: Transparent with group expenses, personal not important.
      • DW: I believe the original proposal to record personal expense is not to control the group, but to see what resources we would need to collectively lead the lives we want to.
      • JT: If we collect hard data, we can have less speculation.
      • KS: I don't think we would have a good understanding so far if we recorded. I personally don't see value of collecting personal expenditure, in fact I think it could sap energy.
      • BG: At Mainz we lived by the rules of the house.
MW: Thinking of using social currency as a transition to no money. Something based on block-chain and what possibilities there are. A lot of people need the extra level of security.
      • BG: Have a look at Turowskis work.
      • PE: Concerns that any currency leads to same slippery slope.

Ending 

MC: Would agree with current statement. Who do we accept money from? What do we spend it on? How do we evolve this?

RF: Like Dougs proposal, don't want to make a fuss - don't want money to hold us back
VD: Likes proposals. Doesn't see why we should limit ourselves: 'Manage the money, don't let the money manage us'
AL: Agreed with everything heard til now and looks forward to going through survey.
MS: Don't want to make a fuss: prefer fuzzy over sharp guidelines. Let's differentiate personal from group, good to have freedom. What are our dreams? We should be an example for others, that it's a tool and not a way of life.
ML: We should not limit ourselves with the policy.
JT: Have a feeling that money issue is heavy which is understandable. We shouldn't rush to conclusions. Like existing statement as a simple guideline. If we want to gather advantages and disadvantages we should. Let's be aware of subliminal stupidity. Let's keep the goal on the platform.
BG: Personally surprised that it's an issue. Hopefully a survey will help. Want to move on as not the main topic. Doesn't prevent us moving on.
DW: Looking forward to further working. Feeling good.
PE: Not feeling 100 %, there is a missing logic step. Primary objective: sharing unconditionally in real life. Using money goes against this. Don't want to fall into consumerist activity. Not sure about the existing money statement.
TR: Glad that people generally like proposal, let's work on it.
BN: We can work with proposal.
JA: Good that someone had put effort in, but unhappy that it is vague but also does not want to get lost in micro-management. More confused than sure.
KS: Feel less confused, actually good. Like proposal, work on it. Inspired by concept of relationships replacing money.
[Meeting ends: 19:20]


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