Outcome

SysCon on the question 'How should yunity handle money internally?' will start at the end of these WuppDays. Douglas Webb
Manuele Carlini proposed to have more in-depth discussions over a weekend specifically dedicated to this issue.
Be suggested to establish a money team that handles everything potentially money-related (funding, WuppHouse, eventual paid yuniteers)

Intentions

DW: Since Raphael scheduled this meeting he may want to clarify his intentions?

RF: Yes sure. Money is definitely an issue, i scheduled this meeting because i think that it's very important to talk about it in person. From my personal perspective, i really feel, that we shouldn't have being moneyless as our primary objective. We always say that we wanted to use as less money as possible and as much as we need, but now i'm very happy that we don't put so much emphasis on being moneyless anymore. From where i come from i know that living without money is kind of extreme and regarding the project i really think that we will need money eventually it's just a question of time.

Minutes

DW: Let's please seperate between intentions and opinions. This can be a pretty emotional and delicate topic, so i'll keep a speakers list and try to keep it as organized as possible.

RF: Okay, i'll try. What brought me myself a little bit back into reality was when Matthias said to give away the responsability for the foodsharing IT. I understood it and it is a burden which is getting bigger and bigger with a growing userbase. This will be even more extreme for yunity, since we will have more users and more functions. The foodsharing site is buggy and we wanted to have it open source from the start, but now, 3 years later, it still isn't. Our primary objective with yunity is creating and launching a platform to spread the foodsharing movement and not to live moneyfree ourselves. If we had a house and an association that would definitely speed up this process and push forward the project as a whole.

DW: This project has not been free of money since the beginning, in Malo we already has 2000 euros and on every WuppDays we spent some money. Now that I hear you speaking i think you are talking about using money in a different way than we were before. Is that correct?

RF: Yes.

MC: I think it is about spending money on ourselves. I spent 500 Euros to come to Rotterdam and we all have expenses all the time. If we were to use money to pay an office or a car or the work of devs we needed to know how to approach that. I had a couple of startups so i know the cost of real economy. Maybe Beata knows how to get funding. And i think that we need to collect all this info before we can make a decision.

DW: I just want to say that it would be a huge investment in time and energy and also a huge dependency if we were to spend money regularly. We'd need things like treasurers and legal advice.

RF: I'm very much aware that there are things that will change, but i think that's the way it will happen anyway. For me it's something very serious, this project will change the world and it will grow very fast. I experienced it with foodsharing and i just feel that it is smarter to act out of a conscious and wise decision as long as we have time instead than deciding out of pressure when time is scarce. This project will be a huge thing and i also think that it wouldn't be fair to leave this burden on some unpaid shoulders since we are not all so lucky to have money from somewhere or are supported by parents. Those types of basic income and security never last forever. It's one of the reasons Raphi quit foodsharing because he couldn't support it anymore, also moneywise. I also feel that people who like to help in the kitchen are not the same as those really working on the project. And there are billions of euros laying around so this could also be a possibility to channel money into the right direction, instead of it being wasted on project that don't effectively change anything. Our goal is to enable others and to change society into a less money-dependent one. Maybe in one year we could already save millions of euros by enabling other people to spend less if we were to accept funding to speed up the development process. It's also because i somehow feel that i have to give more stability to this project since it is something that i started and i want to do it right. We wouldn't be hypocrites if we changed our approach to money. Me personally, i never experienced such sentiments after i quit my money strike. yunity will never be about money, but we can use it as a tool to enable others.

BG: The dream was to not spend money on people which would fix them to the project and make them obliged to do things. That was the dream. It is possible if there's no timeframe, no pressure to just work if we feel like it. During Ouishare fest i met this guy from Uber and i asked him how many devs do you have? he said: in the beginning we had 5 now we have 4. and they have 200k users. They are receiving funding and he told me they applied on different levels, e.g. the sustainable development award. At the Brussels level we could get EU funds, at the personal level we could get private funding, then there's crowfunding. And about the treasurer and accountant that Doug mentioned, it's true we would definitely need it. For the moment we don't need it, but as soon as there's money involved we need to have a legal structure. For me also, money is like any other tool or resource. It's like a house that we use, it's like food that we eat. I also think it's not so easy to get money, maybe it is, but i doubt it. We have to be very transparent to get funding, we need to write applications and fulfill requirements. We also would feel more pressure probably, because there would be expectations then. People coming and going would be a problem. If we would pay some people that we need, it would be like basic income, just so that they don't have to worry. In fact to give people the choice and the freedom to join us. We are not disconnected from families or health issues.

DW: Should we limit speaking time to 5 minutes? [agreement]

BN: I think we've created something very special, a very unique atmosphere and i think that is also because of how we don't really use money. I have trouble giving that up. Also with foodsharing, i think there was a problem as soon as money came in, because it was never really clear how it was used. It could destroy the positive atmosphere. When it comes to a house, it could be someone that supports us 100% and just gives us a house, it could be some kind of association spending money on health insurances or the likes but i think doing that from inside the community will create a lot of problems. On the one hand because of bureaucracy, it's a nightmare i really don't want to have anything to do with it but to pay outside people also is not something i feel comfortable about.

ML: I also think we need to differentiate the things we could spend money on. I'm totally okay to spend money on heating, electricity and water we use up in a house, but if you need to pay people they can have a different mindset on why they are in the project. We need to see, of course, but i have concerns in that regard. Also, i think it would be VERY expensive to pay people for the work we were talking about. And if we were to grow really fast we would have to spend millions of euros on technological infrastructure, but i don't think we need to think of that just now.

DW: Me myself, i've never been extreme i only have a philosophical issue with not being moneyless. My main concern on hiring people is the bureaucracy and the problems that arise from it. I also don't really see the need to do so. I mean, if i look at the trajectory of the project and the progress we made in the last 7 months, we have achieved a lot: we have WuppDays scheduled for the next months, we have free food, free property to use. Of course, we all feel the pressure to launch, but (sorry i lost it here..)

PE: What are the issues with money? Money doesn't stay means, it becomes purposes. Another issue is responsability, people don't take responsability for spending money. We never intended our mission to be moneyless, it's the side effect that we become moneyless. Our mission is that we encourage relationships were we share unconditionally. And i also share the concern of Bodhi and Doug that using money internally could change the spirit, on the other hand money is out there, everywhere around us. I think it would be good if yunity had a good resources management, we all seem to agree that we need a house, health insurance also seems quite reasonable, but paying people..? Money can corrupt, i'm not saying that these people here could be easily corrupted, but we're talking about the future here and we can't say what's gonna happen. It's hard to have it inside the organization and of course it's cheating in a way to have another organization which takes care of money and gives it to us, but maybe it's a very smart way to cheat.

RF: We really have to think big and realistically. There are people living in this world who need money and after some time loans run out, heritages are used up or there are unexpected costs and there is no basic income yet in Germany. If we had that the situation would be different, but right now there is none. Matthias said he'd work the same amount of time regardless of payment, as well as Philip and Doug who have basically been completely immersed in the project since 7 months, which is amazing! But that's also exceptional. And again, there is this money out there, we can just pick it up and channel it into the right direction. I really KNOW that yunity will work, i had the same feeling with foodsharing and it turned out to be so true. We are only gonna grow, we will have to deal with this issue in the future, so why not address it know? (wikipedia example, i missed a little because i needed to get my charger)

BG: We are living in the era of internet and there are so many companies making profit from it, so our project is unique in this regard. I saw some groups of fears: 1. Who is going to take care of it? -> Well there are people who like being accountants, it's like math if you don't get it it's awful, but as soon as you get it it can be beautiful. 2. WuppHouse -> Did we get the locations we used so far because we put emphasis on being moneyless? I don't think so. I think it's because of Raphael's story with foodsharing and people with open hearts who share our vision. I think nobody asked the details on how we handle money as an organization. Also, do we need to appear like hippies to the world or do we want to appear like professionals developing a platform?

MS: Money has always been kind of an enemy for us. The more i think about it changing the world is a long transition, a long process for us to go through and i think yunity is a big part of it. That's why i want to realize it as soon as possible. To me, money is not the root of all evil, of course there are some mechanisms that can be potentially dangerous, but as long as we are cautious and don't let us corrupt by it, i think it can be helpful. I do share the concern that if we take money in it can change things, but i think it's not impossible to succeed. It can also be a challenge, which i actually see as interesting. I think we'd never pay a full dev salary anyways, so the people coming in would still need to share our mindset, because they could earn a lot more in other projects or companies

Jonathan: I think money brings unclarity. Now this project is a self-running project and if things need to be done, people will come and take care of it. If you say we need money and only use it in a collective way, without paying people on a personal level, it is much safer, because the other way can create feelings of hostility or greed or envy.

Tess: In my opinion being moneyless is beautiful because it sets a great example. People get curious and impressed and want to support us and they always can support us by providing space or any kind of resource. We don't need money to run this project. Of course, somehow money is involved, we have these laptops and every individual has personal expenses, but we can manage and setting this example shouldn't be underestimated.

MC: Why are we having this discussion now and not in 6 months or 6 months ago? Because everything is a bit blurry. When will the platform be launched? Who are the people that will stay? I'm commited to this project because i think we're in it together for the long run. If i knew that people i value were to leave in some months i would definitely rethink this decision. For me it was not the moneyless that attraced me, but i know that it does attract many people. And it's also true that money changes a lot, at my office e.g. there is my boss, who is a cool guy, but he is still my boss. Maybe we can split those two parts of yunity: On the one hand we have the completely moneyless movement going around and attracting people and on the other hand having a maybe not that moneyless but therefore a lot more professional project that develops the product. There can be different solutions and there is a lot of money around. For me using money can also be seen as saving it from being used for bad things.

RF: It costs sometimes energy to get rid of conditioned mindsets. Like Manuele just said, there will be people who will use the platform in the exact same way we lived for the last 7 months, and for me there is this bigger vocation to make sure that this will actually happen. I want to move this forward, the same with foodsharing, i always experienced that with the volunteers, who had other things to do there were more important tasks at the time and then nothing happened again. This time i want to rock'n'roll! And i want to rock'n'roll with you guys! We started WuppDays to speed up the process but it was an illusion to just finish it at WuppDays. And of course we have this team building experience which no money in the world could have bought for us, but now i think it's time to take the next step. I think money has a lot more advantages than disadvantages and it lets us concentrate on the work we want to do instead of worrying about getting by in this moneybased world. If we were to be corrupted by money i'd go out of the project, but i'd also go out if we won't get serious, because then it's somehow like a kindergarten to me, where nothing gets done.

PE: You know my issues with money, but on the other hand Raphaels arguments are very valid. Not everyone can live completely moneyfree, i see that. BUT: Who will get it? How to distinguish between a real contributor and a visitor? Will Jonathan, who came through the window two days ago, be offered money? Is Doug worth more than some other? This is a tough issue, and on top of that we'd need contracts to manage payment.

Tess: It could also be a possibility that the choice is up to people if they accept the money or not, depending on their situation.

AF: yunity is the online version of global villages. One way to get this idea working would be to get it working in the city to show people, which then will want to move to the countryside again to get it working even better. Me personally, i want to get this app running because i want to live with it, i want to use it! I already built a similar app some years ago, and got another person on board to fix bugs. I was quite frustrated because he didn't really do it, and i did pay him! Now some months ago he started working on it again and i was confused. I told him that i won't pay him a cent and asked him why he was working on it again and he just replied 'Yeah well, i liked the idea'. So i'm not so sure about this paying people idea. IT people can earn so much money in this world, a project like this would never be able to pay as much in the starting phases. When it comes to concrete problems, like someone is sick and needs treatment because otherwise he'll die. Of course pay it! If someone really has no choice but to pay an unexpected bill, help them out, sure! But don't even talk about it, because it's just natural and not a regularly occuring thing.

Tess: I think i would leave if people got paid around here, because i'm just not such a good dev. I learn stuff all the time, sure, but i bet there are more skilled devs out there and also already in the project. I definitely would feel alienated, and maybe i'm not the only one. I think that if you have motivated and experienced people together that can push projects.

MS: On what Alexander said: I read some studies that paying people can actually demotivate people from getting stuff done. But here's the thing, we're not paying them to get things done, we pay them to enable them to even work on it. I don't know if we would find enough people who could live like this, at least i don't want to rely on it. We need a stable core-team for backend and frontend. If we put too much pressure on single individuals they could collapse, burn out and move away from the project because of that, and i really don't want to see that happen. If we took money to reduce the pressure i think that would be a good thing. We share resources like mattresses, why can't we expand this mindset to money as well?

BG: 'Money currupts' sounds to me like 'All the rich people are bad'. Equality will be a very important thing, we don't want to create a gap between the rich devs and the poor festival people. We need to express our needs and try to meet them and money can help with that. Also, maybe we could outsource some things: Maybe there is some superdev we could hire to give us workshops, maybe he doesn't share our values and doesn't want to live with us, but he can still be a good person. What is most important to me right now, since we already talked about money three times, is that we don't just finish like this. I want to know the next step we will take in this issue, so that we get closer to actually deciding stuff. Somehow i'm inspired by Ouishare, so many people want the change and they want to bring it to them.

RF: I really want to register the association. We will need another meeting on that to make sure who is gonna be in there and to really structure that. We don't want this to happen like with foodsharing where people just work some hours here and there. No! This is serious! We do an amazing thing and we need to make it accessible to people. The issue with alienating people is definitely there, there are always people getting alienated, you can't please everybody - just for clarification. On who would be paid: We really need experts, not only in IT but also in legal, server pros and more and more to come. And again: It's not really about paying people, but about enabling them, since we don't have basic income. I'd really prefer we had it, but we don't! I want to make this project with a really strong and committed team, that can fully concentrate on the project. I want to make this step with you! And i really think that we can make a huge shift in the world! It would be sad if this issue divided us, since i really value what we already achieved together! Thank you all for your input and insights, i think we are very very conscious on this topic and i'm looking very much forward to the next steps we'll take.

DW: Let's just close our eyes for a minute, let it sink in a little and then talk shortly about how to proceed from here.

BN: I think it would be good to have another meeting to discuss proposals and prepare an online SysCon about this.

MC: I agree, maybe even a whole weekend to have a deeper discussion on this very important topic would be appropriate.

RF: I like both proposals and also for the association i think we should discuss this here already to speed up that process as well. It's necessary to find out who actually is 100% into this and wants to stay with the project.

PE: It would be important to have more clarity on the details. Also in the money proposals already on the wiki, more concrete details would be needed.

MS: Yes more clarity would definitely be helpful.

AF: I'll help as much as i can in every area.

BG: Maybe we need a money team? To really focus on this topic and wants to deal with it. Research examples on how people already proceed and on what legal issues woud be touched. Also a strategy to get more developers and the house, all those things are somehow linked to money.

ML: Maybe it's better to keep it split, since we didn't talk about the house or the association before. Communication is necessary about steps like that so i'd still prefer to have more discussion on that before deciding. I really wouldn't like some kind of yunity club to be created with half of the people not knowing about it.

DW: I would like to set up a SysCon actually at the end of this week instead of scheduling more meetings. Bodhi, Philip and I have already spent a lot of time writing proposals about this, so we maybe should have done it already some time ago. In my opinion it will create positive pressure instead of negative pressure, because we can always choose further solutions and reevaluate decisions.

BN: I like the idea.

[Meeting ends 13:19]

2016-05-22 Talk about money #3

Outcome

Intentions

Minutes